[Path-list] FW: Lynn Camp Creek crossing & cattle guard.

Mon May 3 15:04:29 MDT 2021

Hi Jim,

I was hoping to tie in with David A. On boundary work that day so hopefully I can do both this walkthrough and boundary. I’ll be there at 9am.

I think this is an option, but two downsides come to mind with this relocation. Adding even a 60ft roadwalk on 617 might be problematic. When I went out to check the cattle guard out two different trucks screamed on by at top speed. It was a little after 5, so I may have hit rush hour. There isn’t great shoulders there( from what I can remember) with a moderately pitched ditch. The other downside is that it pushes the trail closer to the house that’s adjacent to the field. I kinda like the current route that follows the wood line through the hay field. It seems like there’s a little bit better buffer from houses and development on the current route.

Better to see in person - which we’ll do in a few weeks!

Josh
Sent from my iPhone

On May 3, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net> wrote:

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Sounds good Don.
9 am Friday, May-14th @ VA-617.
Jim

Sent from my Galaxy Tab®

-------- Original message --------
From: Don Smyth <donsmyth983 at gmail.com>
Date: 5/2/21 8:01 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net>, Josh Kloehn <jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>
Cc: path-list at path-at.org
Subject: Re: [Path-list] FW: Lynn Camp Creek crossing & cattle guard.

Jim,

I can meet you at 617 to review the reroute.

Don

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Houck via Path-list" <path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>>
To: "Josh Kloehn" <jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org<mailto:jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>>
Cc: "path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>" <path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>>
Sent: 5/2/2021 11:50:30 AM
Subject: [Path-list] FW: Lynn Camp Creek crossing & cattle guard.

Josh, somethings to consider.

  1.  Cattle guard:

Where the AT crosses VA-617, NOBO, move the AT with a right dog leg over the culvert that the Cattle guard stream goes through & under 617.
This would become the stream crossing & a 60’ road walk.
Then, turn left into the field adjacent to the stream, follow the stream or go through the field to the cow pasture(will need a stile here).
This is all on FS land/Trail Corridor.
There is a nice little knoll in the NE part of the grazing meadow. Maybe take the AT over there as we head for the existing stile at the woods line.
My opinion, of the best view in this area is looking SOBO at Glade Mt.
I’m hopefully optimistic as to a walk along the stream.
I’ll check this out on May 13th or 14th. Anyone want to go??

After I check out this alternative, we’ll make a decision.

  1.  Lynn Camp Creek crossing:
Pending further discussion, fording Lynn Camp Creek seems the better option.
I’m thinking a few large stepping stones for use during higher water.

Jim Houck
Club President & Trail Supervisor
Piedmont Appalachian Trail Hikers(PATH)

From: Josh Kloehn<mailto:jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 9:57 AM
To: Jim Houck<mailto:houckjw at bellsouth.net>; path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>
Subject: RE: Lynn Camp Creek crossing & cattle guard.

Let me know how I can support both of these, Jim.

Regarding the cattle guard –
If we ripped out the existing cattle guard we would need to install some sort of crossing, if nothing else but to avoid it becoming a big mud hole. There isn’t too much distance from the tread on either side to the water so I’d think a simple structure would do it – a sill on either side with deck boards as stringers. Maybe even use some locust lumber from the work center as stringers/decking and plane off the top surface to make it flat. A stile would also have to be installed. Access is good here, materials and equipment can be driven right to the drain crossing.

I went out and looked at this last week and could go either way on the cattle guard. My gut reaction is that the cattle guard serves no purpose seeing as farm equipment doesn’t need to cross over between the two fields. With either the guard settling or the drain filling up with sediment we’ll still have an issue with water getting under or around without clogging up. Don could keep maintaining the ditch around the guard, but that seems like a short-term solution. The current boards that are just sitting on top are a little janky, but still provide a safe-ish path across the guard. There is one other cattle guard in SW VA on the AT – on OCVT’s section at the start of Pocahontas Rd. That one is a little sketchy when wet, but has been necessary with the easement in that area. I think the rural and rustic character of PATH’s section is still strong – the fact of walking through several pastures and ag lands is pretty unique, and one of my favorite aspects of your section.

I guess on this issue, what solution is best for the Trail and users? Leave it as is. Reinforce/anchor the running boards on top or completely remove, and improve the ditch around the guard or scrape some of the sediment below the guard to get more clearance for flow. Rip out guard, install simple sill/stringer crossing, install walkthrough stile and connect fencing on either side of stile.

On Lynn Camp bridge – I understand the apprehension around a ford instead of a bridge. We’ve all probably hiked on trails out west or in other places that lack bridges. It’s a hassle to either get your shoes/boots wet or take them off and put on water/camp shoes, and there is added risk for hikers and folks who are crossing a ford need to take more time to navigate across safely. I’m coming from the point of looking at different types of creeks and crossings and which are more allowable and safer vs those with more inherent risk. The Kennebec and James River’s are extremes and those we need to provide a bridge or ferry; the Lick Creek and some of the hairy Maine unbridged crossings, in my mind, are on the edge and in the end are too unsafe in high water conditions to provide just a ford. To me the Lynn Camp and Comers Creek crossings are in the sweet spot where the risk and hazards involved can be mitigated and outside of storm flow can be crossed easily via a wet crossing. Just my point of view.

As you mentioned, Jim, if we keep the bridge work needs to be done in the near and not-so-near future. The immediate need to shore up the railing structure will definitely require manpower to rip and replace, and any future replacement of the abutment or the entire bridge will require substantial funding.

I guess with both of these projects we need to keep in mind what’s best for the Trail and it’s character, user safety, efficient use of resources – both $$$ and volunteer, etc. I don’t have all the answers, and want to come to solutions that we all agree on. Let me know how I and ATC can support the conversations and projects – no matter where we end up on both.

Josh Kloehn
Resource Manager
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
Central & SW Virginia Regional Office
416 Campbell Ave SW, Suite 101
Roanoke, VA 24016
Phone: 540-904-4391
Cell: 406-860-8371
jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org
www.appalachiantrail.org<http://www.appalachiantrail.org/>

[X]
The Appalachian Trail Conservancy’s mission is to preserve and manage the Appalachian Trail – ensuring that its vast natural beauty and priceless cultural heritage can be shared and enjoyed today, tomorrow, and for centuries to come. To become a member, volunteer, or learn more, visit www.appalachiantrail.org<http://www.appalachiantrail.org/>.

From: Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net<mailto:houckjw at bellsouth.net>>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:56 PM
To: path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>
Cc: Josh Kloehn <jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org<mailto:jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>>
Subject: Lynn Camp Creek crossing & cattle guard.

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More discussion needed?
Chris mentioned he did not like wet water Crossings, unless unavoidable.
We could replace the handrail on the existing Lynn Camp Creek Bridge but that would be a lot of work.
And it would take us a lot of weekends to complete.
Then the end abutments would need work in the not to near future.
We have an older membership now and we've got to consider that when taking on larger projects.

When FS offered to do the heavy lifting at the cattle guard and augering the holes for the stile & fence, I was quick to jump on board.
Jeff spoke up and we put that project on pause.
Let's talk.
We could go either way on this project with the same results.
Hikers keep hiking & cows kept in their field.
PATH is a unique Club and I like to think we have a unique section of the AT.
The cattle guard may be the only cattle guard on the Appalachian Trail and that makes it unique.
We still have a fairly remote section and that's a good thing too.
I like remote and rustic.

The Lynn Camp Creek Crossing could go either way also.
Foot bridge or ford.
I'd vote for ford on this one as it would be a more unique, rustic solution, & a whole lot easier.

Jim

Sent from my Galaxy Tab®

-------- Original message --------
From: Jim Houck via Path-list <path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>>
Date: 4/27/21 12:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: path-list at path-at.org<mailto:path-list at path-at.org>
Subject: [Path-list] Fwd: RE: Lynn Camp Creek Bridge(LCCB).

FYI.
From Josh.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab®

-------- Original message --------
From: Josh Kloehn <jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org<mailto:jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>>
Date: 4/27/21 12:27 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net<mailto:houckjw at bellsouth.net>>, David Atkinson <1david.atkinson at gmail.com<mailto:1david.atkinson at gmail.com>>, Herb MacDonald <herbmacdonald999 at gmail.com<mailto:herbmacdonald999 at gmail.com>>, Ed Martin <martinjreh at aol.com<mailto:martinjreh at aol.com>>, Martin Wes <martinw at wilkes.k12.nc.us<mailto:martinw at wilkes.k12.nc.us>>, richfreeman303 at gmail.com<mailto:richfreeman303 at gmail.com>, suefreeman303 at gmail.com<mailto:suefreeman303 at gmail.com>, Tom Dillon <tdillon27127 at earthlink.net<mailto:tdillon27127 at earthlink.net>>, Tina Tempest <tina.kiehn at gmail.com<mailto:tina.kiehn at gmail.com>>, Chris Bracknell <wbracknell at juno.com<mailto:wbracknell at juno.com>>, Morris Yule <yulemorris at yahoo.com<mailto:yulemorris at yahoo.com>>, Betsy Truscott <btrus at infionline.net<mailto:btrus at infionline.net>>, David Faucette <dfaucette1948 at gmail.com<mailto:dfaucette1948 at gmail.com>>, Hunt McKinnon <MCKINNONW at ecu.edu<mailto:MCKINNONW at ecu.edu>>, Martha Emrey <topco999 at yahoo.com<mailto:topco999 at yahoo.com>>, Paul Haag <pdhaag328 at gmail.com<mailto:pdhaag328 at gmail.com>>, Steve Yonts <Mrzachsdad at aol.com<mailto:Mrzachsdad at aol.com>>, majesteadt at gmail.com<mailto:majesteadt at gmail.com>, Hudnell Ron <ronhudnell at aol.com<mailto:ronhudnell at aol.com>>, karlkunkel <karlkunkel at aol.com<mailto:karlkunkel at aol.com>>
Subject: RE: Lynn Camp Creek Bridge(LCCB).

Great summary, Jim. You’ve got ATC’s support for this plan, and eliminating a large and remote bridge with a decent ford should be supported by USFS as well.

I’ve been to send out this update to the USFS, but got sidetracked by other things. I’ll process the GPS track I took and add that to you summary, then send out to our agency partners.

I’ll copy you, Ed, and Rich & Sue on my communication with USFS.

Josh Kloehn
Resource Manager
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
Central & SW Virginia Regional Office
416 Campbell Ave SW, Suite 101
Roanoke, VA 24016
Phone: 540-904-4391
Cell: 406-860-8371
jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org
www.appalachiantrail.org<http://www.appalachiantrail.org/>

[X]
The Appalachian Trail Conservancy’s mission is to preserve and manage the Appalachian Trail – ensuring that its vast natural beauty and priceless cultural heritage can be shared and enjoyed today, tomorrow, and for centuries to come. To become a member, volunteer, or learn more, visit www.appalachiantrail.org<http://www.appalachiantrail.org/>.

From: Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net<mailto:houckjw at bellsouth.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 12:08 PM
To: Josh Kloehn <jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org<mailto:jkloehn at appalachiantrail.org>>; David Atkinson <1david.atkinson at gmail.com<mailto:1david.atkinson at gmail.com>>; Herb MacDonald <herbmacdonald999 at gmail.com<mailto:herbmacdonald999 at gmail.com>>; Ed Martin <martinjreh at aol.com<mailto:martinjreh at aol.com>>; Martin Wes <martinw at wilkes.k12.nc.us<mailto:martinw at wilkes.k12.nc.us>>; richfreeman303 at gmail.com<mailto:richfreeman303 at gmail.com>; suefreeman303 at gmail.com<mailto:suefreeman303 at gmail.com>; Tom Dillon <tdillon27127 at earthlink.net<mailto:tdillon27127 at earthlink.net>>; Tina Tempest <tina.kiehn at gmail.com<mailto:tina.kiehn at gmail.com>>; Chris Bracknell <wbracknell at juno.com<mailto:wbracknell at juno.com>>; Morris Yule <yulemorris at yahoo.com<mailto:yulemorris at yahoo.com>>; Betsy Truscott <btrus at infionline.net<mailto:btrus at infionline.net>>; David Faucette <dfaucette1948 at gmail.com<mailto:dfaucette1948 at gmail.com>>; Hunt McKinnon <MCKINNONW at ecu.edu<mailto:MCKINNONW at ecu.edu>>; Jim Houck <houckjw at bellsouth.net<mailto:houckjw at bellsouth.net>>; Martha Emrey <topco999 at yahoo.com<mailto:topco999 at yahoo.com>>; Paul Haag <pdhaag328 at gmail.com<mailto:pdhaag328 at gmail.com>>; Steve Yonts <Mrzachsdad at aol.com<mailto:Mrzachsdad at aol.com>>; majesteadt at gmail.com<mailto:majesteadt at gmail.com>; Hudnell Ron <ronhudnell at aol.com<mailto:ronhudnell at aol.com>>; karlkunkel <karlkunkel at aol.com<mailto:karlkunkel at aol.com>>
Subject: Lynn Camp Creek Bridge(LCCB).

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

On April-16, 2021.
Josh Kloehn(ATC), Jim Houck, Ron Hudnell, Morris Yule & David Atkinson looked over the handrail & came to the conclusion it all needs replacing.
When pushing left & right on the Handrail, it is somewhat sturdy.
When Josh pushed forward & back, parallel with the bridge, it was quite evident the railing was near the end of it’s life.
We discussed new handrail on one side only(this is allowed by FS). We decided this was the best option.
Much discussion/concerns about carrying materials & tools  in.
We also noted the deterioration of some of the abutment timbers on the north end of the bridge.
Although the stringers & deck appear to be solid, the abutment timbers may not last long(5 years, a guess).
Meaning more work in the near future.

As a last option we looked up stream for a crossing.
Sure enough, there is an old woods road 100’ upstream from the bridge.
After closer looking, I believe this is the old AT, used prior to the bridge being built(around 1984).
This woods road drops down to the creek level & most likely was a ford across the creek.
It also connected to the existing AT, about 300’ south of the existing bridge.
& connects back into the existing AT, 100’ north of the bridge.
Basically a loop around the bridge.

This is a “Wilderness Study Area”, so a ford would be appropriate.

Plan is to open the old road as the new AT(quite easy).
4 or 5 people, 1 day.  & close the bridge.
We need to make temporary controlled passage(to minimize stream bank erosion) for hikers to enter & exit the stream. Possibly large rocks. There are quite a few in the area.
The creek is about 20’ wide & water probably would not get deeper than 18”. It was about 6” to 9” deep on April 16th.

After bridge is closed, remove handrail, remove hardware from rails & post & move rails & post to the camping area for firewood.
Remove the decking & stack at a location for removal.
The 2 existing stringers would be cut into lengths to act as stream bank protector where hikers ford the creek, Combined with rock steps.

Josh, we need to let FS know our plans; Erik Taylor, Drew India & the 2 FS men on the April-8th zoom meeting.
I don’t expect any objections, nor NEPA, etc.
Same for ATC.

Josh, PATH Board & other PATH members included here,
Any Questions, comments, concerns ??

I’m hoping to start work on this in August & work in September & October, as needed, so as to finish this year
Ed Martin & his crew, along with Rich & Sue Freeman are asked to be leaders on this project.

Jim Houck
Club President & Trail Supervisor
Piedmont Appalachian Trail Hikers(PATH)

[Appalachian Trail Logo]<https://appalachiantrail.org/>

The mission of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy is to protect, manage, and advocate for the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. To become a member, volunteer, or learn more, visit www.appalachiantrail.org<http://www.appalachiantrail.org>.

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